How do you feel about Obama's pick of Rick Warren for his inauguration?

Who's Rick Warren?
50% (10 votes)
Love it!
15% (3 votes)
Bad Decision.
15% (3 votes)
Meh.
20% (4 votes)
Total votes: 20

Obama said he was going to reach across the aisle

Coaster's picture

It was a good move on Obama's part to pick a Christian Conservative preacher to give the invocation. Our country, thanks in no small part to Rove's divide and conquer politics, has become terribly divided and unbearably partisan. What a fine gesture for the liberal president-elect to include on this most important and historical occasion a well known right-wing minister.  Who cares if Rick Warren is a homophobe who compares homosexuals to child molesters?  Let us, Republicans and Democrats alike, learn to again respect and love each others, and then we can all all hate homos together.

Ever notice that

Scumby's picture

left-wingers use the word 'hate' to describe people that they hate as 'haters'?  E.g.

Homophobe: Someone hated by gays.

Anti-Semite: Someone hated by Jews.

Racist: Someone who makes a general observation about a minority group while not a member of said group.  Indicative of a prediliction for mass extermination of dark-skinned peoples.

Hater: Someone who disagrees with me and is therefore a hater.

Sexist: See misogynist and rapist.

etc.

Why yes, that makes perfect sense

Coaster's picture

Because as we all know, homophobes and anti-Semites don't really exist, especially among the ranks of conservative Republicans.

Labels shmabels

Scumby's picture

Those are all strawman charicatures, just like the 'America haters', Islamofacists, socialists and other boogeymen of the right.  Religious and irreligious alike seem to need somebody to hate.

Welcome to Planet Earth

Coaster's picture

If Racists were only straw men, then Obama certainly would have carried at least ONE county in Oklahoma.  Several people I'm familiar with had only a vague idea of the issues involved in McCain/Obama, but they knew one thing:  Obama was Black and they weren't going to vote for him.  End of story. 

Well, not quite the end.  One day several months ago, a delivery driver was going off on a "there's no way we're going to elect one of them" rants.  He added, by way of explanation, "You know what they're like."

I said, "I certainly do.  I'm married to one and raised two of them to adulthood." 

That killed the conversation.  Something I seem to have a talent for doing in real life as well as on obscure Internet bulletin boards. 

This is no misinterpretation of a real issue.  Racism is a real problem.  There are no straw men there.  If you want misrepresentation, just listen to Hannity and Limbaugh when they talk about the War on Christmas. You've got enought straw men there to keep the crows off of half the cornfields in Iowa. 

It's odd that we both voted the same on this poll. 

That's exactly why many in Georgia didn't vote for him

Rajah's picture

I'm proud to say I wasn't one of them.

I'm deeply ashamed of my state

If Florida is the penis of America, then Georgia is the grundle

Racism is very well alive. 

jazzdrive3's picture

Racism is very well alive.  But it also goes in reverse.  I know many black people who had only a vague idea of the issues involved in McCain/Obama, but they knew one thing:  Obama was Black and they WERE going to vote for him.  End of story.

Let's start a race war

Scumby's picture

Every single human being makes generalizations, including racial ones, by way of experience.  Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar.  These generalizations can be applied unfairly to individuals, which is called prejudice.  Trying to eliminate it entirely is like declaring war on bad manners or snide bulletin board comments.  It's a human flaw that can at best be managed.

You used your own prejudices when you generalized your truck driver example to the whole state of Okies, stereotyping anyone who didn't vote for Obama as a racist.  These identity politics are counterproductive.  We should be reducing racial consciousness, treating Obama as an individual, not as some racial symbol.  We'll know that racial progress has been achieved when we're not so obsessed with race. 

I agree...

TMundo's picture

...however, not letting blacks, and all people have their moment, isn't going to happen, if their was no racism, it wouldn't be considered an important moment.  I'm trying to bring up my daughter so that she doesn't differentiate from one color to the next.  Yes, color registers in her brain when she sees, but I don't want that to be an issue.

However, if one is on the other side of the tracks, and has been subjected to numerous racial discriminations, it's not hard to imagine they'd be happy with Obama becoming president right now.

Kids...

michael3b's picture

...are not tuned into color as a means of differentiating people.  Adults are.

A friend of mine worked as a teacher in an impoverished area of south carolina.  All black school.  After 4 months one of the kids came up to her during recess and asked her if she was white.  She said yes and the kid ran off yelling, "OOOOOOOOOOOO, look out! Miz Parker is WHITE!"  Hilarious and sad.

 

Kids are evil

Scumby's picture

I used to believe that kids were colorblind.  Years of seeing children self-segregate into various groups along race, gender, height, weight, athletics, etc. prior to exposure to societal prejudices cured me of this fantasy.  Kids are quite tuned to differences and often use them to pick on each other.

Basically I'm trying to avoid that with my daughter...

TMundo's picture

...the whole need to constantly categorize people as 'white' and 'black.'  Those are words I try not to use around her when talking about people.

Kids are taught evil.

michael3b's picture

Kids can be cruel and they may eventually brutalize one other on their own, but that initial behavior is learned.  It simply expands into their little heads and through their peergroups at light-speed, giving the illusion of intuition.

I went to elementary school with a lot of puerto ricans.  Had no idea that they were thought of as less-thans by some of the people in my town until I started to hear about it from older kids/adults.  Obviously the differences in skin color, accent, etc. were noticeable, but it was not something I considered harping on.  My parents never even broached the subject until I casually let "spick" slip once after hearing it so often.  The punsihment and lecture came swiftly. 

Fact is, once that cat's outta the bag it makes no difference where it came from. A person's gotta come to terms with a devisive world on their own.

 

True some people come to it on their own, and some don't, but...

TMundo (really, it really is me!!!)'s picture

did you here what you said:

My parents never even broached the subject until I casually let "spick" slip once after hearing it so often. The punsihment and lecture came swiftly.

Your parents corrected you. I will also do so should my daughter develop some learned behavior. On the other hand, there is only so much you can teach them.

Children that learn from their own racist parents may rise above it should they develope their own sence of morality and rise above it, or just go with what they know.

Sometimes your parents are right, sometimes they are not. It works both ways.

Au Contraire

Coaster's picture

Scumby wrote:

You used your own prejudices when you generalized your truck driver example to the whole state of Okies

No, I did not. I shared one example out of numerous ones, I assure you. Have I mentioned before that a gent in my doctor's office waiting room told me that voting for Obama was unAmerican? That doesn't follow that all around here are that fucking stupid. Perhaps he was seeing the doc for dementia.

Scumby wrote:

stereotyping anyone who didn't vote for Obama as a racist.

I didn't do that either. For many, race was a factor. For some of those I know quite well, race was the only factor. Period. These gents couldn't name a bona fide election issue if a year's supply of chewing tobacco was riding on it.

Assuming that race isn't an issue for a good many people from all locals and implying that I think all conservatives are racists is wrong. Honestly, the racists I deal with couldn't tell you the difference between liberal and conservative ideologies anyway.

Obama made the observation that as many would likely vote for him becasue of race as would vote against him.  Cosby made the observation that many people who don't like Blacks voted for Obama because there were issues larger than race that loomed for them. 

President Obma.  Damn, I like the sound of that. 

Getting back to the original issue

Scumby's picture

Warren and others who take the position that homosexuality and gender confusion is a disorder to be "healed" are not "haters" of a class of persons.  That's an invention of the left, just like "America-haters" are an invention of the right.

Certainly transgendered persons who have sex-change operations, for example, think they have a medical condition.

Delegitimizing an opposing point of view by calling it an irrational "hatred" is meant to suppress discussion rather than promote it.

They should embrace Jesus and kiss his cheek

Rajah's picture

Then they'd be cured

Uh...

michael3b's picture

Exactly what dialogue is being suppressed by calling a spade a spade?  You hate the Jews, gays, Christians, blacks, whatever...then you hate them.  End of story.  To dabble in some political discussion re: the merits of suppressing, say, the rights of any of these people is to play into a false notion of a two-sided argument.

Hate is no invention.  The word can be thrown around irresponsibly, but the notion that "the left" invented "haters" is, at best, hypocritical.  At worst, it is abject lunacy.

Someone who preaches (much less spends a single waking moment considering) that someone else is diseased for living a life unlike theirs is indeed saying that they hate someone.  Unfortunately for them (and the "diseased") they don't realize that the hated is their own self.  Hatred, in short, is projection.

In any case, when the sheriff I met in Tennessee (who was checking up on what us outtatowners with the fancy 'lectrical 'ee-quipment were up to) told me, apropos of nothing, and within 3 minutes of beginning our conversation, that the real problem (with depressed central TN) was "the niggahs an' the spicks", he summed up precisely what a good chunk of this country thinks.  And that ain't love, my friend.

Duh...

Scumby's picture

It is a fact that politicized terms like "hate crimes", "politics of hate", "hate groups" etc. are of leftist origin.  Hate is an extremely strong word that is thrown around irresponsibly.

If you cannot understand the concept of "hate the sin, not the sinner" or diagnosing a behavior-modifying medical condition without personally "hating" its victim then you just want to play "pin the tail on the oppressor" as Camille Paglia recently put it.

Virtually everyone holds prejudices and stereotypes, just like the sheriff in your anecdote.  It's terrible and should not be as socially acceptable as it remains today.  However, it's a long ways from there to wanting to destroy, kill, despise, lynch, and all of the other things that the word hate implies, and the distinction should be maintained.  To draw moral equivalence between prejudiced amateur sociology bullshit and lynching is not "calling a spade a spade", it's a false accusation.

In this day and age, Only a RACIST

Coaster's picture

would use the word "spade."

Camile needs to turn in her vagina. 

 

BTW, just wanted to say that Rick Warren's prayer wasn't so bad after all. 

Nice to know the Left invented hate.  Get a grip, man.  Look at Rove's divide and conquer tactics.  First, you invent the enemy, and don't people just hate the enemy?  If you don't think the Right preaches hate, you really need to pay closer attention to Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter, Boortz and the rest of their ilk.  From weasel words to encouraging outright hatred is part of their stock in trade.  Among the HATERS of the right, they've found a most willing audience.  I can't believe you think the Left has a monopoly on hate and that we're responsible for inventing it.  If we invented it, then your buddies on the Right have surpassed the teachers.  Congratulations. 

Wouldn't you say that comparing being gay to being a child molesters, as Rick Warren had done, is a hateful thing to say?  So Gimme a break already. 

Hate the hating haters

Scumby's picture

Again my objection is to the abuse of the language--using the word hate inappropriately to label an opposing POV as irrational--more than anything else.

If you had been reading along you would have noted that I criticized the right for using the word inappropriately (America-haters, God-haters, whitey-haters, etc). 

In your example, are you saying you hate Warren for saying that, or that he must hate gays if he says that?  Assuming the latter, it should be clear that he's comparing homosexuality to another sexual behavior abnormality that is widely accepted to be a disorder, and pointing to what he sees as an inconsistency if you say one is normal and the other is not.  Bleating "hater" like an Orwellian sheep is not a counterargument.

With respect to Prop 8 and measuring hatred, I find the lack of irony-awareness disturbing in those who wish that all the Mormons' sons became gay and got gang-raped (yes that was a sort of anti-prayer actually posted in certain forums) because it's MORMONS that are the haters.

Your broad swipe that "the Right preaches hate" is another example of trying to delegitimize a POV by calling it an irrational negative emotion.  It's equivalent to Limbaugh calling Democrats "America haters" or Bush saying al Qaeda "hates our freedom".  I.e. nonsense.

Hate exists, but the increasing demonization of people you disagree with as "haters" has to stop.  At the risk of reductio ad hitlerum, Hitler demonized the Jews by promoting their supposed hatred for Christians, social norms, native arts, blah blah blah--ie you should hate them because they hate you.  There's enough real hate in the world without manufacturing hatred between social groups. 

I hate you.

michael3b's picture

Just kidding.

Scumby- I see your point, but you are making it in a vacuum.  Saying the left invented "hate" (as opposed to Hate) is incorrect. Saying that some on that side use the word irresponsibly is not.

You can make an academic argument about anything, but when the rubber hits the road (i.e. politically speaking) there is only the outcome that matters. So, when people line up behind a party the MO of which includes bombing innocent civilians, removing the rights of certain people based on religious irrationality and/or financial interests, and calling out any dissenters as traitors, then they are acting hatefully toward those affected peoples, regardless of their intentions/rationalizations IMO.

To wit:

"No one's trying to kill you," Clevinger cried.

"Then why are they (Germans) shooting at me?" Yossarian asked.

"They're shooting at everyone," Clevinger answered.  "They're trying to kill everyone."

"And what difference does that makeT'

 

 

pretty soon it'll be one word per line!

TMundo's picture

.

Bull

Coaster's picture

Feathers

As this thread asymptotically approaches the right hand margin..

Scumby's picture

will it ever be reached?

It's like finding the middle of the middle...

TMundo's picture

...you can always keep going.

A parallel

FearlessFreep's picture

Conservatives talk of the people who "hate America," which means people conservatives hate.

Indeed

Scumby's picture

Indeed, pin the tail on the hater seems to be a game both parties play, to the detriment of political dialogue.

Right you are Ken

gamerarocks's picture

Politicians should be kept away from sharp objects like pins.

Me and my gay intellectual brethren

Scumby's picture

I note that Camille Paglia follows the same line of thinking in a recent article, even talking about "pin the tail on the oppressor":

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/01/14/obama/index2.html

Barney Frank said he wanted a reach-around.

michael3b's picture

Says Warren, "Not today, gay boy!  Well, maybe after the ball if I can score some meth. Call me."

 Bottom line- keep your friends close...keep your perverted friends with drugs and boys locked up in cages closer.

Intention vs. result

FearlessFreep's picture

BHO says he chose Warren to bring Americans together.  Yet this choice has just increased the divisions. (Paradoxically, pragmatism often backfires.)

Reaching out to people like Warren isn't in itself wrong, but giving him a position of honor just a few months after he's participated in the Yes on Prop 8 campaign is the wrong way to do it.  If the new president had instead, say, invited him to the White House, I wouldn't have minded. (Goodness knows that some sleazy people have slept in the Lincoln Bedroom under past administrations.)

BTW, Warren strikes me as a first-class weasel!

I get the symbolism and all

Rajah's picture

But why piss off people who voted for you?

Why Piss Off the People Who Voted for You?

Coaster's picture

I voted do do away with "politics as usual."   I am not pissed.

Leading Democrats ingratiating the Right?

FearlessFreep's picture

Sounds a lot like "politics as usual" to me. (Remember Bill Clinton?)

Doing something that's been done before

gamerarocks's picture

doesn't mean the results will be the same.  Obama said he would be doing things like this.  If the outcome is the same as before oh well, but you can't find common ground if you never leave your own.

Hmm

FearlessFreep's picture

Doing something that's been done before doesn't mean the results will be the same, but doing it again and again in the expectation of a different result is Santayana's definition of insanity.

<looks at Michele Obama again>

Rajah's picture

<drools again>

The poll sums it up nicely

Rajah's picture

Who the fuck is Rick Warren? And why do we care what he says?

Because Warren sold 20 million books

Dan_in_Cincinnati's picture

And because he is considered to be a "moderate" among the fundie preachers.

{;-) Dan in Miami

PS:  There will also be an openly gay preacher at the inauguration to balance things out.

 

 

Unintended Result?

Coaster's picture

If Gene Robinson were to bump in to Rick Warren at the Inaugural, then grab him by the throat and beat him senseless, I might, just might, start believing in God. 

If that indeed does happen, I hope the right-wing press gets it right:  Rick Warren had the crap kicked out of him by a bishop, not a queen. 

Ann Coulter sold alot of books too

Rajah's picture

Doesn't mean I wanna hear her shit

I think Ann Coulter is hot!

opposition for advocation's picture

I would love to do the horizontal limbo with her until she breaks in half. Then I'd write a book about it.

So, somebody got inoculated today?

michael3b's picture

That's cool.. Cholera is making a comeback after all.

 

The right Rev Warren should stay out of bedrooms...

Dan_in_Cincinnati's picture

that don't belong to him. 

The Christian right should attend to their own morality and leave other folks alone.

{;-) Dan in Miami

PS:  Instead of calling it hate speech, maybe we should call it I-can't-mind-my-own-business speech.

Al Sharpton on Prop. 8

Rajah's picture

You mean a Sharp point

TMundo's picture

I dunno, he comes off as more of a political or racial activist than a preacher.  But I haven't gone to hear him preach all that much.

My feeling was that you read your Bible, pray to God, feel the Word and let it lead you.  However, you must make sure that it's not your own emotions leading you astray.  Check what you're doing, if it's not in the Bible, maybe you're doing things wrong.

What about "Judge not, lest thou be judged"?  Running around condeming people may not be the best thing either.

How do you expect to bring others to God if you get in their face and condemn them.  You catch more flies with honey.

by the way, who's Rick Warren?

TMundo's picture

.

I'm still wondering myself.

MadNessMonster's picture

Apparently he wrote some "blah blah chicken soup and hope and glurge" book.

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