06/21/01: saving this before forum demolition

Posted By: grundle

http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/tombraider/149/2.html

06/19/01: Re: McDonalds vs. free speech in school and on the radio...

Posted by: downwithmcdonalds@yahoo.com (Ickyru)

That kid had a lot of guts to say that to mega-exploiter McDonalds. Most people in high school would quietly listen as members of the corporate elite feed them their bullshit (and crappy, unhealthy food). This is another reason why the media has no business in private hands - there is de facto censorship because every company is going to lean towards viewpoints that discourage commenting on business practices or just alternative points of view than the ones the ruling class wants... right now Westinghouse and GE (military suppliers!) control a huge part of the media market... very very sick. Then again I think that private control of most of the economy is sick and unproductive anyway...

Post a response to this discussion thread

Go to: the Tomb Raider forum | Message | Previous Response | Next Response

----------

http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/tombraider/149/4.html

06/19/01: Ickyru, please respond to this post. I really want to hear your response.

Posted by: grundle2600@hotmail.com (grundle)

I am respondoing to your post. Please read what I am saying. Then, please respond to me. I want to know what you think of the things that I am saying.

"This is another reason why the media has no business in private hands - there is de facto censorship because every company is going to lean towards viewpoints that discourage commenting on business practices or just alternative points of view than the ones the ruling class wants... right now Westinghouse and GE (military suppliers!) control a huge part of the media market... very very sick."

In the United States, anyone who wants to can publish whatever they want. Because of our capitalist computer hardware and software industry, desktop publishing is becoming easier and cheaper every year. Anyone who wants to has the rigft to publish whatever they want. You can publish anything that you want. And you can also put up a website to publish whatever you want. Also, because of our capitalist economy, it keeps becoming easier and cheaper for anyone to be able to record and mass produce their own music CD, and it's also getting easier and cheaper for anyone to make their own movie using a digital camera. You can create whatever type of art, music, or movie that you want. You can say anything that that you want. And no one can stop you.

On the other hand, in countries where the government owns and controls the media (Cuba, North Korea, mainland China, etc.), you do not have these rights. If you say something that the government does not like, you can be put in jail, tortured, killed, etc.

"Then again I think that
private control of most of the economy is sick and unproductive anyway..."

The most productive economies in the world are the ones where most economic activity is carried out in the private sector. Examples are the United States, Hong Kong, Switzerland, and Ireland.

Take a look at everything that's in your house. Almost all of it was made by the private sector.

People who lived in the Soviet Union, and moved to the United States, and went into a supermarket for the first time, would often have a very strong emotional reaction, shock, faint, etc., to see the tremendous abundance of food.

Because of all of the advances in technology that were created because of our capitalst economy, the average person who lives in the United States today has all sorts of wonderful luxuries that even the richest person in the world did not have 200 years ago. For example, if you want to have a conversatiuon with your friend who lives 1,000 miles away, then you can do that by using the telephone. But 200 years ago, even the richest person in the world could not do that.

Also, take a look at immigration patterns. I know dozens of people who were born in communist countries who moved, permanently, to the United States. But I have never known even one person who was born in the United States who moved, permanently, to a communist country.

Every year, huge numbers of people in Cuba risk their lives to try to get to the United States. But no one from the U.S. ever wants to move to Cuba.

Please respond to the things that I have said in this post. Please explain to me what you think of the things that I said.

Post a response to this discussion thread

Go to: the Tomb Raider forum | Message | Previous Response | Next Response

----------

http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/tombraider/149/7.html

06/19/01: I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him...

Posted by: upwithmarx@marx.com (Ickyru)

I will address a few points, first those on the private control of media. Firstly, it is obvious that private control of media creates censorship in a very abominable way. With Viacom, Time-AOL, Westinghouse, Disney, GE and a few other companies controlling what we see there cannot be anything but censorship and gross exaggeration when it comes to profit making. That is, no company in their right minds would run a story criticizing what they are doing too heavily, nor would they run a story likely to be detrimental to shareholders or capitalism in general. In American society, because the ruling class has very little to fear right now, we are allowed to say what we want, unless we are poor and black, hispanic, etc. and then there are limitations. Yes, we can get online and publish what we want *if* we are of the privileged few to own a computer and have time to do so. But without the massive advertising dollars that the major corps. have it simply doesn't matter - your words will languish in cyberspace. Of course, government monopolization of media is rarely any better. This is obvious once we see that the state is little more than a puppet of whatever class is in control - the business elite here. Plus, bureaucrats rarely make good journalistic editors. I think a much fairer system, and in the end more conducive to free speech, is to nationalize media, and allow for people to create media organizations - papers, radio shows, tv shows, movies, etcetera without any interference. Sort of, if there's a great enough proportion of people willing to do the work, they get to and get publicity without having to worry about profits or ownership. Guidelines will have to be set if certain shows are more popular so as to adjust funding. Of course, I don't see this happening in a capitalist society. But it would be fairer than any monopolization, private or governmental. Onwards toward the capitalism vs. socialism debate. Grundle says the market has created bountiful wealth for American society. Indeed it has, but only for a certain percentage. Since 1973 the wealth of the top 25% has increased by about 63%, while the bottom 60% of American society has seen its wealth increase by only 12% (check the book "Money: Who Has How Much and Why". Minimum wage has actually decreased in value since 1979 (workers make a fully $74 dollars less a week on average than they did twenty two years ago). Average wages have stagnated and the income of black working families versus whites peaked in 1975 only to see the gap widen again continuously. Yet productivity in the US increased by 25% in the same amount of time. So basically this means business has been reaping enormous profits at our loss. Not that better income would mean anything as they would still make a profit off our labor. *But* what has been happening in the past few years is a growing realization that Americans, poor as they are, only remain at the top of the heap because we (along with nations like Germany and Japan) superexploit the workers and natural resources of other nations in the "third world". Wonder why that burger at Mcdonald's is so very cheap or why those jeans are so very inexpensive, or why you just may get a raise this year? Go ask workers in Honduras in the maquiladora "zones" where American businesses come in, use cheap labor, and ship out without any taxes whatsoever. Lenin pointed this out in 1916 with his pamphlet on imperialism, but it seems that it took the general public 80 years to find it out with sham agreements like NAFTA or the EU. Not that everything is inexpensive or cheaper - the ruling classes of all the industrialized nations are pocketing more profits but cutting back on every service imaginable - health care, transportation, utilities, and on and on. Really, it makes me laugh to look at the inefficiency of the market - as pointed out by California's energy crisis. Energy companies didn't build so as to reap profits, and now industry is sputtering as they pocket billions. A society run and planned democratically, without a market, would have solved the problem of energy long ago, probably relying on alternative energy more and more. If the auto, steel, electric, agricultural and countless other industries were under the control of the majority - the working class - and planned through democratic debate and discussion, we wouldn't have to worry about waste or loss because of the ever increasing need for profit against all else. It just makes logical sense when one see the US economy, that cities could be planned better, and so could the economy, especially if it was planned for need, with research raising production to incredibly high heights as more and more nations joined the plan. Finally, addressing the Stalinist nations such as Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea. Yes! They are run poorly by a dictatorial bureaucracy. No question about that. And this is a major reason why they are sputtering and dying right now. The economy has been mismanaged by bureaucrats that wanted more luxury cars and dachas instead of an economy that actually works or spreading the revolution worldwide. Yet what I am fighting for is a democratic communist regime like Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Luxemburg, and countless others who have died or been murdered (by the Stalinists or others) knew was the only way to make it work. I don't think any post-capitalist society could really work unless there was increased democratic control and people could actually debate what it is necessary for the economy to do, unless there is no entrenched bureaucracy. Plus, as capitalism has taught us, you can't run an economy that's shut in on itself. This is why the revolution has to spread and incorporate more nations into democratic planning and exchange. Otherwise, you end up like Russia or Eastern Europe. Russia is a dying nation, whose capitalism had no basis in the imploded economy from '93 on, and Eastern Europe is only surviving on massive western subsidies and by becoming a cheap labor source like Africa or Latin America. I think the main point is freedom - and I don't think we have acheived that in this country or any other capitalist nation. We never will. That's the system, it's rigged against freedom. The peasants and craftsmen who marched in Paris to secure the way for freedom, for what they thought would be a better life under capitalism were cast aside when they were no longer necessary. America didn't free the slaves until 1865, and one could argue all minorities here are still semi-slaves. It's sad and disgusting and demoralizing. We need a change, a real change, and hopefully more people will heed the call.

Post a response to this discussion thread

Go to: the Tomb Raider forum | Message | Previous Response | Next Response

----------

http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/tombraider/149/10.html

06/20/01: Ickyru, your praise of commusism is out of touch with the real world.

Posted by: grundle2600@hotmail.com (grundle)

Your comments are so out of touch with what happens in the real world.

You have completely ignored the facts of reality.

You have comletely ignored what happens in Cuba vs. what happens in the United States. And you haven't explained why people in Cuba try to escape to the United States. Apperently, this boggles your mind. You seeem totally unable to explain why people in Cuba try to move to the United States.

Also, you ignored many of the things that I said in my post.

"we are allowed to say what we want, unless we are poor and black, hispanic, etc. and then there are limitations."

Wrong. There are no special limitations for those people. A person who is black or hispanic doesn't have any special kind of censorship placed on him. And even the poorest person in the U.S. is allowed to stand on a street corner and say whatever he wants to say.

"Yes, we can get online and publish what we want *if* we are of the privileged few to own a computer"

"Privileged few"? That's absurd. Computers are owned by tens of millions of people. And for most people in the U.S. who don't own a computer, it's because they don't want one, not because they can't afford it. You don't have to be "priveleged" to own a computer.

"I think a much fairer system, and in the end more conducive to free speech, is to nationalize media,"

In the countries where this has happened, there is no free speech.

"Guidelines will have to be set if certain shows are more popular so as to adjust funding."

So you would allow a bunch of government bureacrats to make these kinds of decisions about speech. That will definitely result in major censorship. Just like in North Korea, Cuba, mainland, China, etc.

"Grundle says the market has created bountiful wealth for American society. Indeed it has, but only for a certain percentage."

Wrong. Capitalism in the United States helps ALL people. Everyone benefits from mechanized farm equipment. Everyone benefits from supermarkets. Everyone benefits from washing machines. Everyone benefits from machine made clothing. For you to claim otherwise is absurd, and suggests that you are completely out of touch with reality.

"Since 1973 the wealth of the top 25% has increased by about 63%, while the bottom 60% of American society has seen its wealth increase by only 12%"

So you are jealous that some people have benefitted more than others. You are jealous of people who make more money than you.

Besides, the people who were poor in 1973 are not necessarily the same people who are poor today. For example, a person who was a graduate student in 1973 may have been at the poverty level. But today, that same person could be very wealthy.

There is more chance for upward mobility in the United States than in any other country. Poor people from all over the world immigrate to the United States because they want a better way of life.

In communist countries such as Cuba, North Korea, etc., there is no chance for upward mobility.

"Average wages have stagnated and the income of black working families versus whites peaked in 1975 only to see the gap widen again continuously."

The main cause of poverty among black people is illegitimacy, not racism. For married black couples, the poverty rate is very low. The problem of poverty is primarily a problem of illegitimacy. You are mistaken to blame black poverty on racism. The biggest cause of black povery is illegitimacy. For black married couples, the poverty rate is very low. And for blacks who were born in Barbados and now live in the United States, the average income is actually higher than the average income for whites. Also, the average Asian American family has a higher income than the average white family. Minorities make up a huge number of high paying professions such as doctors, scientists, computer programmers, business owners, etc.

"Americans, poor as they are, only remain at the top of the heap because we (along with nations like Germany and Japan) superexploit the workers and natural resources of other nations in the "third world"."

Wrong. We aren't "exploiting" anyone. The typical American factory in a third world country pays wages that are higher than what those people would otherwise be able to get. People line up for those jobs because it's a chance for themn to make more money. For example, a Nike factory that pays 30 cents an hour is a major step upward, if your previous alternative was to make only 10 cents an hour. The fact is that every country in the world starts out poor, and it takes decades of economic growth for the country to become rich. These factories from Nike and other American corporations are helping these countries to begin the step up the ladder of economic growth.

In a communist country like Cuba, people are forced against their will to work for the communist government. The government decides what job each person will have. The governemnt forces people to work against their will. The starting wage for a Cuban cigar maker in $10 a month. This is the "worker's paradise" that you speak of.

"Really, it makes me laugh to look at the inefficiency of the market - as pointed out by California's energy crisis. Energy companies didn't build so as to reap profits, and now industry is sputtering as they pocket billions."

There were plenty of power companies who tried to build new power plants in CA, but every time they did, the environmentalists got the government to block construction.

"A society run and planned democratically, without a market, would have solved the problem of energy long ago, probably relying on alternative energy more and more."

Wrong. Societies that don't have market economies have done almost nothing in the way of inventing new energy technology that people benefit from. The vast majority of the energy technology that we benfit from was inventeed in countries that have market economies. The vast majority of advances in farming technology, energy technology, medical technology, communications technology, etc., were invented in countries that have market economies.

"If the auto, steel, electric, agricultural and countless other industries were under the control of the majority - the working class - and planned through democratic debate and discussion, we wouldn't have to worry about waste or loss because of the ever increasing need for profit against all else."

You are mistaken. The most efficient countries are the ones with market economies.

"It just makes logical sense
when one see the US economy, that cities could be planned better, and so could the economy, especially if it was planned for need, with research raising production to incredibly high heights as more and more nations joined the plan."

The Soviet Union spent huge amounts of money on scientific research, and they had a hge number of brilliant sicentists. But they invented almost nothing that was of any use to the typical person. They were very wasteful.

But the United States, with a market economy, has made huge progress in advances in farming, medicine, communications, computers, etc.

"America didn't free the slaves until 1865,"

Slavery existed for thousands of years, all over the world, in just about every country. It was capitalist America that aboished slavery. Some countries in Africa still have slavery today. Communist countries such as Cuba, North Korea, mainland China, etc., still have forced labor today.

"and
one could argue all minorities here are still semi-slaves."

The tens of millions of black people in the United States are not slaves. The average black person in the United States gets up in the morning, goes to work, spends time with friends and family, goes to movies, enjoys life, has fun, and is quite free. Every black person in the U.S. is free to think, act, speak, express political viewpoints, practice religion, etc. But the people in communist Cuba are not free to do these things.

You comments claiming that communism is better than capitalism suggest that you are completely out of touch with reality. You are totally ignoring the things that have happened in the real world. You have chosen to hide your eyes and your brain from the things that go on in the real world. You totally ignore the fact that life in a capitalsit country is far better than life in a communist country. You have got to be the most ignorant, most blind, dumbest, most idiotic, most absurd, most ridiculous, most irrational poster than has ever been on this website. You have totally ignored what goes on in the real world. You are a blind, ignorant fool.

Post a response to this discussion thread

Go to: the Tomb Raider forum | Message | Previous Response | Next Response

----------

http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/tombraider/149/12.html

06/20/01: grundle, your praise of capitalism is out of touch with the real world.

Posted by: redundancies@yahoo.com (ShadowEmperor)

There is no text here.

Post a response to this discussion thread

Go to: the Tomb Raider forum | Message | Previous Response | Next Response

----------

http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/tombraider/149/13.html

06/20/01: Bog *DAMN* it...