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09/17/1999: Hot damn. Posted by: Fierce_Molly@hotmail.com (Fierce_Molly)
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I'm not going to sit here and individually respond to every post I missed. So feel free to let me know if I forgot to address something. I'm sure you will.
Wulfgar, when I have things to cope with outside of this message board, it will always come before you. Always. I'm sorry to disappoint you and I'm sorry if you feel I've been neglectful. But when real life calls, it's put much higher on the priority list than you and your immature games against the people of this message board.
Okay, now let me turn to mendo for a moment...between you and me, as you insist...you want me to deny calling you a pedophile? Okay. I deny ever calling you a pedophile thus far in this thread. I leave it up to you to prove otherwise. Did I call you a pedophile a few weeks ago? I don't recall, to be honest. And that's not an attempt at escape. Show me the URL where I directly called you a pedophile and I'll apologize.
See, kids? I'll apologize. Mendo isn't my favorite person, but if I used the word "pedophile" against him, I will apologize. Because it was WRONG and I should not have done it.
As far as having a master is concerned, it's funny how, if I speak out against you, I'm suddenly being dictated to. Who's my master this time? Is it still Discord? I'd ask HIM, but he's so busy these days...I bet there would be no comments on "masters" and "manipulation" (not to mention your "disappointment") if I went to your side of this argument. But funny again, wouldn't that make YOU the master? Agreeing with people does not mean one has a master throughout the argument. If that were true, wouldn't your master be Wulfgar? I'm not sure if I'd want to be ruled by that.
As for the rest of you, I say you should all save your breath and go home. Unless, of course, Richard has more to say about this. And I'd love to get more of Richard's opinion of Wulfgar's behavior. But anyway, I think we all know that none of us will get through Wulfgar's thick skull. The tense of one's verbs does not make a remark more appropriate because it wasn't a direct slam. Saying "I WOULD call you a TWAT" is not better than "You ARE a TWAT." Either way, he used the word against me with the intent to insult. And sure, it's pretty funny (yep, everything is still funny), but that doesn't mean he shouldn't apologize. My breast comment was funny as hell, but I still apologized to Chica when I thought she was offended.
Wulfgar will never apologize, though. And he'll never learn how to save himself. We got all the proof we need of THAT in the Open Your Eyes 14 thread. That's the longest argument I've ever been in around here, and even though his entire side consisted of name-calling and shots at my age, he never once apologized. Hell, I even apologized sometimes in that thread. I took the fucking blame for starting the argument! And as you can see, it was all for nothing. He continues to use name-calling as his one and only tactic against opponents. I just wish he'd call me a "pig-fucker" and call it a day. I'd love to join the ranks of my friends.
Did I miss anything?
-Molly
09/17/1999: Hmm.
Posted by: Fierce_Molly@hotmail.com (Fierce_Molly)
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mendo: Gracious, I apologize for being so weak. I apologize for being unable to remember every word I said last week. With all the priorities I sometimes have stacked up, it's difficult for me to remember it all. As I said, if I called you a pedophile last week, I apologize for that. I did not do it this week, though. Please pay attention. The point was that, while that word was thrown at you in this thread, I was not one who participated.
Richard: I think part of the reason everyone is complaining about Wulf's attack on me is that I don't use the same tactics as him. It would've been different if he had called me a "twat" and then I came back to say, "Yeah, well, you're a <insert rude name here>." It also would've been different if I had started this problem (as in, if I had insulted him first). But this name-calling thing with Wulfgar is almost like a disease. He's in a constant state of flinging those out. And I rarely throw that at my own opponents, even when I'm attacked by it. His attack upon me was unwarranted.
-Molly
PS - Wulfgar - I would not have made the "self-serving" remarks about how I had more important business than this thread if you hadn't pranced around trying to convince the crowd that my "absence speaks volumes." I do more than just sit here and hit Reload all day. This little girlie has school work, among other things.
09/17/1999: The quandaries of racist/sexist/ethnic/homophobic "humor" Posted by: rbernstein@nyls.edu (Richard_B_Bernstein)
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I've puzzled and brooded over these issues for a while, now.
Some background:
In the 1970s, ethnic, racist, and other such forms of humor seemed to be dying out. It was in part due to their having been brilliantly and effectively pilloried in Norman Lear's comedies ALL IN THE FAMILY and SANFORD AND SON. And also it was due in part to the changed political and social climate of the 1970s, one of the few things about the 1970s to which I look back with nostalgia. (For example, when Gerald Ford's secretary of Agriculture, Earl Butz, told a racist joke on a plane in the presence of a ROLLING STONE journalist -- the egregious John W. Dean III -- the resulting furor forced Butz's resignation.)
Almost from the beginning of 1981, ethnic and racist and homophobic and sexist humor made a vigorous comeback -- the specific landmarks being the publication of the series of books known as TRULY TASTELESS JOKES, along with their attendant ripoffs and knockoffs, and the otherwise unaccountable rise (I use the term loosely) of Andrew Dice Clay. Some politically-inclined critics deduced that, with the election of Ronald Reagan and the rout of liberalism, it was OK to be offensive. Other, more conspiratorially inclined folks, deduced that it was a brilliant right-wing ploy to bushwhack liberals. Sure enough, idiots on campuses nationwide started passing speech codes against such humor and serious insults of that sort, leading to the whole foofaraw over "political correctness."
To be sure, political correctness was profoundly silly. BUT it ended up being a convenient target for those who had and have no interest in two other serious concepts:
* civility -- treating others with respect, and focusing in discussion on what they say rather on who they are (and in particular on aspects of who they are that they can do nothing about);
* diversity -- expanding the spectrum of points of view beyond the dull gray narrow expanse of whitebread white men in gray and blue suits.
There's nothing wrong with fostering diversity, and civility has long been supposed to be one of the hallmarks and props of civilization. That both of these legitimate and admirable concepts are now fit targets for trashing in this debased era of what passes for political discussion is sad and sickening.
OK, where does that leave us with respect to humor (so-called) of a racist/sexist/ethnic/homophobic sort?
In my long experience of hearing jokes, both good and bad and including offensive jokes, most people who tell racist or sexist or ethnic or homophobic jokes do so to demean the target group, OR because they find funny jokes that demean the target group, which itself raises some serious questions about their own values.
One arguable exception is jokes told about a group within that group by members of that group to one another -- e.g., many Jewish jokes. It is extremely rare for a Jew to tell such a Jewish joke to a non-Jew; it is vanishingly rare for a non-Jew to tell such a Jewish joke to a Jew. The possibilities for insult, hurt feelings, misunderstandings, etc., are just too great. (By contrast, there are many Jewish jokes about Jews that Jews can tell to non-Jews and vice versa.) This pattern of behavior also applies to racial jokes told within a racial group by members of that group to members of that group.
So, at bottom, it is at the very least troubling within this frame of analysis to offer to tell a racist or sexist or ethnic or homophobic joke, identified AS SUCH.
That does NOT make the would-be teller an automatic racist or sexist or homophobe or otherwise a bigot. But it does raise concern and cause disquiet.
09/17/1999: Well...
Posted by: Fierce_Molly@hotmail.com (Fierce_Molly)
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I don't know what to tell you then. The way I see it, I can tell any joke I want. And if I offend someone with it, I'll apologize. Why will I apologize? Because I'm not telling the joke with the intent to offend. I'm not a racist, a sexist, or a homophobe.
I've found that system to be one that works well. I met one of my best friends that way. I cracked a joke that made fun of homosexuals and he pulled me aside later that day to reveal that he was gay. Information I didn't know. He wasn't even really that offended. He just wanted to find out if his being gay would prevent a friendship. He and I are pretty close now. And what's most interesting is that my nickname for him is "Fag."
-Molly
09/17/1999: Gee, Molly...
Posted by: 13thknight@hotbot.com (Wulfgar010)
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...is your nickname for your black "friends" "Nigger", "Darkie", or "Jigaboo"?
Or for your Hispanic "friends" "Spic", "Greaser" or "Wetback"?
Please, this is so illuminating..."Purpose is the determining factor"...
Gotcha...
09/17/1999: Fierce_Molly
Posted by: rbernstein@nyls.edu (Richard_B_Bernstein)
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Your nickname for your gay friend is "Fag."
And he accepts this.
Forgive me; my head has to spin 360 degrees and I have to spit up pea soup now.
09/17/1999: Yeah, that's about right, Richard. Posted by: Fierce_Molly@hotmail.com (Fierce_Molly)
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I call my gay friend "Fag" and he finds it pretty funny. In fact, he likes to make fun of me for being straight. It's an interesting relationship.
And Wulfgar, no, my nicknames for black and hispanic friends aren't anything like that. Though I have told them some of those jokes you'd label as "racist." Oh, I have a Jewish friend that I sometimes refer to as a "dirty Jew." But that's a running joke due to his love of the show South Park.
It has nothing to do with any sort of hatred for homosexuals or Jews.
Everything is funny.
-Molly
PS - Just for clarification, I wouldn't call either of these examples by the names I call them if it bothered them. I would apologize and not use them again, despite the fact that I find it funny. 09/17/1999: Thanks, Richard .. Posted by: jdk@innocent.com (mr_streamofconsciousness)
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I am learning very slowly to stay out of this, because my words would no doubt be twisted, and then accused of something even worse.
The last thing I have to say about this, that is unless Isotope gives me reason otherwise, is that the so-called provocation that Wulfgar is alluding to was a generalized comment called "Mr. Predictable".
The irony of that is that Wulfgar was calling everyone else predictable, and for him to take offense, and call Molly such a harsh name, is beyond my reasoning.
Sounds like something Discord would do.
And where is the humor in that?,
-sOc-
09/17/1999: everyone +/- 5
Posted by: jking76@hotmail.com (Technomage)
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Wulfgar: *I* don't see anything wrong with calling Molly a twat. I just see it was hypocritical of you to call her that. Discord never flamed someone for using an offensive term, so his posts weren't hypocritical.
Richard: <see numerous disagreemnts on the nature of offensive terms in humor>
sOc: Quiet, you.
Ivan: Sure.
Chica: You're a sweet and intelligent person. You are probably admired by more than you know.
Molly: Stop calling people fags, you twat.
Skilly: Mmmmmmm, twat..... um, nevermind.
Isotope: At least *we* only lost to Tennessee last year because of a fouled-up field goal attempted in overtime. And we're about to get our revenge...
Godmother: Wulfy says you need a new dictionary.
Lentil: I've pasted Wulfy's messages into Alta Vista's babelfish translator and tried all the different ->English conversions, but I still have no idea what he's saying either.
Badtz: Make your move, while she's vulnerable!
Mendo: I fear for the pre-schools in your area.
Masterless: Go for halloween as an aborted fetus. That should get the laughs a-rolling. A little latex, a little stage blood, and a coat hangar stuck in the ear. Fun for the whole family.
X-MAN: You'd be a much happier person if you were a liberal. Knowing the truth is a joyous feeling.
Bickle: Sorry, I think Badtz did the better job with the tasteless jokes.
Emerald: Wulf's line got me, too. Brings a whole new meaning to flaming homosexual.
Michelle: Write the CAPalert guy and ask if he'd review the video of your abortion.
09/17/1999: The following is only intended as an example of what is NOT funny. Posted by: rbernstein@nyls.edu (Richard_B_Bernstein)
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The following is addressed specifically to Molly and Technomage:
Consider the following excuse for a joke that has been told and retold, including in Crankyland:
"What is the difference between a Jew and a pizza? A Jew screams when you put him in the oven."
I submit with deep respect that that is NOT funny -- not the slightest bit funny. And that anyone who laughs at that revolting excuse for a joke has a serious problem with issues of good and evil, right and wrong, and basic civility.
And there are many more pseudojokes like that one floating around, which you can hear when people let their guard down and reveal the dark side of their souls to one another on the misapprehension that "everything is funny."
No.
Not everything is funny.
Some things are goddamned unfunny.
Some things are so revolting that the only appropriate response is a dignified expression of revulsion and reproach to those who spew them under the misapprehension that they are funny.
And that goes for terms of abuse as well.
09/17/1999: Technomage
Posted by: jdk@innocent.com (mr_streamofconsciousness)
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Shut the fuck up.
I am *done* now.
-sOc-
09/17/1999: Richard
Posted by: jdk@innocent.com (mr_streamofconsciousness)
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http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/stigmata/7/6.html
If I didnt take these things in Crankyland so lightly, I might get offended by that thread as well.
What's mendo's excuse?,
-sOc-
09/17/1999: for god's sake, sOc, shut the hell up! Posted by: meth102@hotmail.com (Masterless)
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Christ...
09/17/1999: -sOc-
Posted by: rbernstein@nyls.edu (Richard_B_Bernstein)
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First, where the hell do you get any indication that mendo has anything to do with the pedophile jokes in that thread? I'm serious: whatever happened to the presumption of innocence? Or is it only for your friends?
Second, you're missing the whole point I've been trying to make. As evidenced by your own words, you have to make a positive effort of will NOT to be offended by these posts in Crankyland.
09/17/1999: Yes, Richard... some things are damned unfunny... Posted by: no_life@all.tom (mendo)
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I'm a white, raised Christian, non-gay male... so there aren't all that many insults that people can fling at me... you know... kike, fag, dyke, wop, spic, wet-back, nigger, etc... so asshole losers like Technomage and the rest of the Cranky NAZI's have to keep throwing out the old "pedophile" remark... whata bunch of fucking losers... it ain't a joke, and it ain't funny, but I guess since it's only mendo, noone says a word... so I put up with it, all the while thinking "Jeez, these losers remind me of the Columbine situation..."
Technomage, -sOc-, Molly and others hide behind the internet... PUSSYS... weak PUSSYS... like I told -sOc- a while ago... IRL you losers are probably the ones constantly getting picked on... so you get big and strong sitting at your keyboard... losers...
Oh, well... now let's see you losers chase me around the new forums... I know -sOc- will... he's been stalking me for months now... WHAT A LOSER!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
*kisses*
.tom
BTW, losers, in case you missed it:
http://photogallery.simplenet.com/natalie_portman/np_vog20.jpg
hee hee...
09/17/1999: Techno...
Posted by: 13thknight@hotbot.com (Wulfgar010)
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...YOU'RE CON-FUZED, pup...
I weep for the promise of your intellect that shall never come to fruition...
Ummm, why is it hypocritical for me to...how did you put it...ah, yes, "flame" Molly for using an offensive statement...?
God, you are so completely stupid; I speak ENGLISH, fuckwit.
Go back to the video games...they don't fight back. Y'know, like yer baby sister...
sOc: Name-calling HURTS (*sob*)..a-an-d-d, YOU'RE a BIG POOPY-HEAD!!!!!! THERE, NOW, YOU know what it's like...(*breaks down into a flood of tears*)...
If ya want, I'll HOLD Techie, and YOU hit...
He's so terribly under-equipped for this sort of thing... 09/17/1999: Speaking of weak. Posted by: Fierce_Molly@hotmail.com (Fierce_Molly)
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Look at mendo's comparisons to Columbine. Give me a break.
-Molly
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